The Writing Apothecary Podcast
A podcast about tips, tricks and hacks on all things writing with your host Mandi Kontos - a writer, writing mindset coach and self published author. Each month we tackle a different topic to do with writing and follow it up with a chat with a guest who will put things into perspective and finish off the topic. The Writing Apothecary is the podcast to help you understand the different layers of a novel, one topic at a time.
The Writing Apothecary Podcast
Fight Scenes: Interview with Fantasy Author Caroline Logan
Welcome back to The Writing Apothecary and to our interview for the topic. Caroline and I dive deep into the all things fight scenes and how to better your writing of them.
In today's chat here are some of the things we covered:
- What defines a fighting scene?
- The kinds of fighting scenes.
- The language of fighting scenes.
- Caroline's take on all things fighting scenes.
About Caroline:
Caroline Logan is a writer of Young Adult Fantasy. She is currently working on her Scottish fantasy series: The Four Treasures. The Stone of Destiny, The Cauldron of Life and The Sword of Light are out now, with the final book - The Spear of Life out now.
Caroline is a high school biology teacher who lives in the Cairngorms National Park in Scotland, with her husband and dogs, Ranger and Scout. Before moving there, she lived and worked in Spain, Tenerife, Sri Lanka and other places in Scotland. She graduated from The University of Glasgow with a bachelor’s degree in Marine and Freshwater Biology. In her spare time she tries to swim, ski and paddleboard, though she is happiest with a good book and a cup of tea.
You can find her here: Website, Twitter, Instagram
You can buy her books from here: Amazon, Cranachan Publishing
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Hello and welcome back to the last episode of Hellfly Things Lessons. Today's episode is an interview with the amazing Caroline Logan, who is a really writer. I'm just gonna give you a little bit of her uh her bio. Um never mind, this was recorded about a year ago. Like I said, I I've I've done a lot of the work, I just haven't quite got there. So Caroline Logan is a writer of young adult fantasy. She is currently working on her Scottish fantasy series The Four Treasures, The Stone of Destiny, The Cauldron of Life, and The Sword of Life are out now with the final book, The Sphere of Life, scheduled for release in October 2022. Caroline is a high school biology teacher who lives in the Cairgombs National Park in Scotland with her husband and dogs, Ranger and Scout. Before moving there, she lived and worked in Spain, Tenerife, Sri Lanka, and other places in Scotland. She graduated from the University of Glasgow with a bachelor's degree in marine and freshwater biology. But in her spare time, she tries to swim, ski, and paddleboard. So she is happiest with a good look and a cup of tea. I really, really hope that you enjoy this interview because it made me think again about five scenes and I really, really love that. So I think it was amazing. But yeah, let me know how you find it and enjoy. Hello there and welcome to the Writing Apothecary, a podcast with tips, tricks, hacks, and information about all things writing. I'm your host, Mandy Contos, and together with some awesome guests, we'll uncover the weird, wonderful, and sometimes unpredictable world of writing. So grab your notebook, grab a pen, or a tablet, or maybe even just listen and let's get started. Hey guys, welcome back to the Writing Apothecary podcast. And today we have a great guest. Her name is Caroline Logan, and she is based in Scotland, which is exciting. Hello, Caroline.
SPEAKER_00:Tell us a little bit about you and your writing. Hi, so yeah, I am a writer based in Scotland. Um I am an indie published writer, so um my publisher is actually on the Isle of Lewis, uh, just this tiny, tiny island um in Scotland. I think that you know, yeah, there's not many people around. Um, but I'm on the mainland and I only started my writing journey a few years ago. Um, and yeah, I just happened to walk into a bookshop one day, met someone who actually teach um their son, and just went up and said, Hello, how are you? Um, started chatting about books, and I said, Oh yeah, well, I've got a manuscript, I'm trying to look for a publisher at the moment. And then uh, what do you know what? She worked for a publisher. Um, and yeah, that's how uh it kind of all started. So uh they said that well, we're looking for fantasy. I was like, Well, great, I have a fantasy book. Um, and she said, Well, can we see the first chapter? So I passed that over, and then they said, Oh, can we see them at the whole manuscript? And I said, Yeah, okay. And then they said, How many books in the series? And I said, Four. And they went, Great, well, we'd like to offer you a contract. That's amazing. So I was like, Oh, this is a lot easier than it was gonna be. Uh, but I will say, I'm just at the beginning of my writing journey. Um, the fourth book is coming out in October this year, but it is a small publisher, so um uh yeah, I'm gonna try and get this series done and then see if I can kind of move on to other things and just kind of keep progressing throughout throughout the career and writing and everything. So it's very exciting, but still at the beginning.
SPEAKER_01:That's so exciting. It's nice. I've got I've like the guests that we've had on the podcast have been from people who have not published yet and are still writing their first manuscripts and whatnot to people who are seasoned and they've you know they're an editor as well as writers. Um, so it's kind of nice to have a uh a broad spectrum because everybody brings different like experiences to the topics, which is really good.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yes. And I've got a lot of writer friends, and yeah, like you say, all different experiences and different ways that they all got there. So uh yeah, it's nice to hear other people and how how they did it, um, or if they're still doing it.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely, absolutely. This season we're we're kind of looking at um, and I say season because it used to be monthly podcasts, but we're doing them bi-monthly. So we're currently looking at fight scenes, and I know with fantasy um stuff like that is quite heavy in novels. So, what do you define as a fight scene?
SPEAKER_00:Um, yeah, so I've had to write quite a few now, um, and of different types. So when I say different types, um there's obviously the sort of verbal fighting um that characters kind of make into, basically confrontations, isn't it? Yeah. Um where it can be really dialogue heavy, and then uh you get into um the more physical fighting, where you know you have these massive battles and there's swords and uh that sort of thing. And then also because I write fantasy, there's a lot of magical fighting as well. And I'd say the the verbal fighting definitely I've written the most of. Um, and then maybe the magical, and now so I'm getting to the end of my book series and it is leading up to this final battle. So it's yeah, it is very exciting, uh, but it is it is difficult though, writing writing physical fight scenes. I think probably the most out of all of them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, definitely. I think that's where I also struggle to is any kind of fight scene, you're like, okay, you can see it in your brain, but then trying to write it on paper, it's a different story completely.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm definitely um the sort of person when I'm reading the book, it looks like it kind of translates into a movie in my head. Absolutely. When I'm writing it, it's the same thing.
SPEAKER_01:I sometimes find that I'm like, okay, where is a good scene that, like a fight scene that's done on, you know, whether it's a movie, a TV series, it's kind of like fun to go back and have a look and just watch it. Obviously, they're quite choreographed, but to watch it how the angles and everything hit, and then try and describe that, which is challenging again, but it's nice to have a reference point to look back and be like, oh, okay, I see how they've done that, and then maybe I can add that into my story and make it fit in a way that is easy to see but hard to write.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think actually my favorite type of movies, funnily enough, are movies that have a lot of choreographed fighting in them. Yeah. So my favorite movie is The Matrix. And you know, there's all those fight scenes. Yeah, yeah. But there's it's it's hard, yeah, to capture that um in a book, especially when I'm thinking about well, I have a friend um who she reads books and she will she doesn't see it as a movie in her head, she's reading it and she's reading the words and she's enjoying it. Yeah, um, and it's not going into it's not going visually into her head. Wow. I did a video about it a few months ago, and I just thought it was so interesting. Yeah. Because it's just not how I see it. Um but it has made me think, well, you really need to be describing everything and making sure that it's understandable, um, not just for the people who do see it, for the people who are reading it and enjoying it as well.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I oh my, I did not think of that. I just obviously, because I think I see it as a movie, and I think everyone sees it in a movie, but then to have you say that, yeah, that's that's gonna make me rethink everything now. Oh god.
SPEAKER_00:There's um she described it as um, imagine there was an apple in front of you. Um, you know, like can you like like imagine there's an apple sat uh like hanging in the air in front of you? Um and then so like people like me, yeah, would I would see the apple in front of me, I'd be able to like turn it and see it and do all the things with it. Um but she would be able, she would think, okay, an apple, well it's red and it is round and it has a stalk. And so she's describing it like that in her.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Wow, like whereas I could see a full apple and know what it tastes like, what it feels like, what it's like to bite into it, but it'd be hard to then describe that to somebody who can't. Wow, okay, my mind is like blown. Amazing. Um, so in that aspect and just in writing in general, what in your opinion makes a good fighting scene?
SPEAKER_00:This is something I've definitely had to learn. Um, I know what a good fighting scene looks like when I'm reading it, I'm I'm you know, enjoying it. And then it was kind of the last book that I wrote, it was all about breaking it down and thinking, well, what what do they all have in common? Um and I think the first time round, you know, I handed something in to my my editor and she said, Hmm, it's kind of like not hitting it. Um so I kind of broke it down even further. And I think what makes a good fight scene is lots of peaks and troughs. You know, you've got the hope that your character is gonna survive, and then something happens and it looks like they're they're uh losing the fight, but then something else happens, and look, they're winning again, and um just not having it kind of yeah, flat um the whole time, yeah, and not having a list of actions um where he did this and she did that, and then the the swords hit each other, and because no one wants to read that, you know, is is boring. Yeah, yeah. I think it really helps thinking about one individual character that you're you've got the point of view from, um, and just really thinking about what are they seeing, what are they experiencing rather than a kind of bird's eye view of the whole battle or whatever it is, um, like what are they noticing? Are they noticing a shoe on the grounds or the trees rustling above them, or you know, just like little things rather than and then from across the field, you know, someone came at them, and yeah, um yeah, I think it's kind of making it about um the characters' emotions and their their senses and making it seem like it's difficult for them. Yeah, because if they if it's too easy, then the stakes aren't aren't there, is it like you know, they're um people aren't why you're reading it, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, if it's too easy, you're like, oh well then what what's keeping me invested if they're not growing and making you know things harder. And I think it's funny because as writers, it's our job to make our characters' lives quite difficult, which sounds really mean, but it's like you know, part of the story is is giving them or you know, letting it evolve so they have these touch points that are harder for them to deal with, and then they get over it and they learn something from that. Yeah, angst. Yes, all of the angst. In saying that, what's your favorite part about writing a fighting scene? Whether that is emotional, mental, physical, is there a specific one that you like best? Can you tell us?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'd say the thing that I found the easiest probably is the if there's any dialogue. So writing a dialogue heavy, variable fight, I think is much easier for me. In terms of all fights, the thing that I enjoy the most is where it seems like the character has lost the fight or they're about to die, or you know, it's about to the say that you've got two people fighting and they're they're in love, but they're about to break up, and then you know, there's this when the chips are down, but something happens and it's the turning point in the fight. I think that that's my favorite part. Yeah. Um, you know, this sort of like suddenly the character makes this choice or lets their feelings go, and kind of everything that's been building up over the time, it finally is released, and then uh something happens and the fight totally turns, whether it is yeah, verbal or physical, that's the best part.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, love it, love it. Why do you think that fight scenes are so difficult to write? Because obviously, I know I struggle with them, and a lot of people that I've spoken to, they're like, it's just a challenging thing to write. And obviously, now bearing in mind that also, as you said, that description-wise, it you need to make sure that you are looking at it so that it actually is something that people can see if they can't see it as a movie, as most of us writers can. Um, what do you think makes them so difficult?
SPEAKER_00:So I was thinking about this earlier. What makes them so difficult? Um, I think honestly, is the action. Um, because if you did just have, I I do think variable fights are easier to write and to read. Um, whenever I'm reading a book, my eyes do tend to skip to the dialogue, which is really bad enough. Yeah, yeah. Um, and I I do also think that people who might not be so visual with their reading will do that because that's easy to think, okay, that's what that person said. Whatever it's the action. And I was thinking, would it be as hard if I was writing a sex scene, which I've never done?
SPEAKER_01:Cool.
SPEAKER_00:You know, not full on. Um there's been kissing, but nothing beyond that. Would it be as hard? And I think personally, yes, I think it would be because it's a set of actions, and you're trying to make it not just all one note, it needs to be this up and down. Yeah, yeah. I think it's describing what's happening with it and finding that balance where there's a lot of action happening, but at the same time, it's still interesting to read, and it doesn't make you just want to go like where's the dialogue? Let's go find that over there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's it's obviously keeping the the readers invested into what's happening because whether it is a verbal fight or it is a physical fight, there are things that happened as a result of it. And whether it's, you know, a breakup or whether someone dies or something like that, like there's something that needs to be at that endpoint to make the fight basically fit. You can't just throw it in there and be like, oh hey, like here's a fight scene, and you know, nothing happens afterwards. It's there as that little bit of, I guess, uh an obstacle that the character has to get past to then move on with the rest of the story.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it should be something that has been built up to because fight scenes, no matter what type it is, they've a culmination of a lot of emotions. Whether that is that, you know, war has been brewing throughout the whole book and finally you get there, or if it's that two characters um love each other, but one of them thinks that they can't be together and they're finally had this fight where that emotion's coming out that it shouldn't just be thrown in because it's for fun. Which I'm just thinking about uh pirates, Pirates of the Caribbean. Yep, uh the movies, how they just uh I think the characters just turn or the actors just turn around and said, We want a fight scene here, let's have that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Great, it works in a movie, but I don't think it works in a book.
SPEAKER_01:No, absolutely not. And I think like movies are great because obviously you can cut them and they're of such a visual thing, but when you do it as in an actual novel, it's challenging because you have those people that visually will see it, but then the people that can't see it as that movie, it's it's difficult to then be like, okay, well, we're just gonna throw this in there. And it's like, but it comes out of nowhere, like it doesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think um you're you're trying to show something with with every scene, you're not just looking for a scene for the sake of it. Yeah, whether that is plot point or whether it's a subplot thing, you know, you're you can't just have things in books for no reason.
SPEAKER_01:Philosophenes don't work in novels because people's attention spans are not as great as if you're watching a movie, which I guess is you know, you're constantly making sure that people will want to turn the page with every every scene, every word, every sentence. How much dialogue do you think should be in a fight scene? Obviously, a verbal one, there's there's quite a lot, but even then you can actually fight non-verbally as well, like in a scene. So do you think that there should be a lot of dialogue in a fight scene?
SPEAKER_00:Uh yeah, I think it depends on what type of fight scene it is. Uh, because if a character is physically fighting by themselves and you know they're they've not got any friends around them, they're just fighting one thing after the other, it's going to be really hard to get that uh that dialogue in. Um, I do write a lot of internal dialogue, so like thoughts, I do think that those probably help depending on your writing style. So, you know, I'll have the characters' thoughts um italicized somewhere, and it's just kind of adding to what they're thinking internally. And yeah, I think like I was saying earlier, uh my eyes do go to the dialogue. So if you're gonna have a lot of action, you do need to break up a bit um if you're not gonna have that dialogue in there. Don't just go for the one fight and they just keep hitting each other because okay, we've got it. You know, say there's a fight where against two opponents and they're not talking to each other, that should be pr that should be over pretty fast. And then we're moving on to the next thing. Um, whether that's a change of scene or whether they've run somewhere else or whether there's a new opponent coming in. If you yeah, if you're not gonna have that dialogue cutting that up, you need to find other ways to cut up.
SPEAKER_01:Hey guys, did you know that as well as a writer and a podcaster, I'm also a writing mindset coach. I work with clients to help empower them to bust through their excuses and write, to allow them to own their own power because writing is such a transformational type of self-care. I have two ways you can work with me. The first is through my program by the same name, the writing apothecary. Here I have four offers: one, three, six, and twelve month coaching options. This is where we get down and dirty with your writing and we explore what you need. Each of the tiers are tailor-made to you and exactly what you are after. No coaching session is the same. Each of their tiers are limited in their numbers as I give my all to my clients, and I want to make sure that it's consistent and you get all of my dedication and attention. In these sessions, you also have access to editing and soundboarding and lots of additional support that isn't just our sessions that we meet up every fortnight. The other way to work with me is through a manuscript appraisal where I blend feedback with editing to give you a full rounded package to look at your novel objectively. It's based off the amount of words your manuscript has and can be a precursor to actually working with me. For all writing apothecary listeners, I'm giving an introductory 10% off your first booking with me. Head over to my website dreamingfoliolake.com forward slash work with me and book in a session with me. Or hit me up on my socials at Mandy Cont, which is M A N D I K-O-N-T, and I can go ahead and slot you in. It's also important to know that I do have payment plans if it's needed and it's a case-by-case situation. This is something that I'm really passionate about, and I hope to hear from you soon. Until then, keep on writing, guys. Is there a certain kind of language you think that writers should use when it comes to fighting scenes?
SPEAKER_00:Um I'm just this just reminded me of when I first started writing, and my editor said, You have got teenagers in your books, you've and they're also they're in a fantasy medieval world. Do you think that they would be swearing as much? Yes, do you not understand teenagers this this in this? I definitely understand teenagers because I'm a high school teacher. So yes, they do swear quite a lot, especially if you know they think that they're gonna die, which I've never experienced, but like I can imagine. Yeah, absolutely. I was a teenager once too. Yeah. Um so aside from that, you know, life and death situation probably gonna be a bit of swearing. If you when you're writing the fight scene, um, it's I think all about your sentence structure. So if you are looking for something really fast paced, you need to have short sentences so that you know the sentence is over, move on to the next one, move on to the next one, and then it makes you feel like it's going a lot faster. You're not dwelling over something, and I also think that the words that you're using need to be sharp to the point. Um, if you can use one word rather than like five, then do that, yeah, use that. Um, I like writing quite gruesome things, right? Um so um I will definitely pull that all out when I'm writing fight scenes. Uh I don't like to shy away from it because I think it's um you know, it's given the reader the stakes again. It's it's saying, Well, look, look how uh horrible this is. People are dying, people are getting stabbed, or whatever it is uh all over the place, and you need to be able to use a language to put that point across, not just, and then there was a feeling in the side, or whatever. No, it's like actually describe like the pain and it lanced through them, and then um the blade was pulled out, or whatever, you know. You're um you're don't try and be too flowery with it, yeah, because war is not flowery, I guess. I've never been to war, but that's what I'm imagining.
SPEAKER_01:Deadlocks of war, just never been in a war.
SPEAKER_00:It counts. Hopefully, it would happen.
SPEAKER_01:That's really interesting because that's one of the things that I know that with my own writing and with fight scenes particularly, I've, you know, they've been the things that I've had to re-edit time and time again because they are such a difficult thing. And it's it's more physical fight scenes than the verbal fight scenes. And that was one of the things that like I started doing is actually using snappier language and shorter sentences because it does drive it forward and it makes it more um oh my god, I've lost the word. More kind of like immediate and it's it's happening right then versus it's something that is drawn out. Yeah. So it's yeah, that's yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's something that yeah, I've definitely learned through adding to editing to do. Um, you know, where I think when people first start writing, they think it's got to be perfect straight away. And definitely not. No, you know, you you go through so many edits, you go through so many edits that you get so sick of it, and you think, who could possibly want this? Because I am so sick of this book. But it's not for you at that point, it's for someone else who you didn't enjoy. Uh and with and if you start writing a fight scene and you think this is not flown very well, but get it down on the page, and then you can come back and make all of your sentences snappier and sharper and more gruesome. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:I do love um Jodie Picot. I think it's Jodie Picot said that you know, you can't edit a blank page. So, you know, it's it's just getting it down and then coming back and not worrying too much about the perfectionism that it comes with. Oh, you know, this thing isn't right or this sentence here is just get the scene down and then come back to it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think that that's the thing that stops a lot of people from writing um in the first place. They think, ah, like they write a page. I've seen it so many times, I'm on so many Facebook groups for writing, they write a page and think, uh that I don't know, this is not very good. Would someone critique this for me? Um, but they've only written that one page, and it's just like get just get it down, like even if it's just the dialogue to start off with, or even if it's just so if I'm getting to a point where I don't really know what's gonna happen in my scene, I'll just go insert awesome fed scene here.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then move on. Totally, totally. And that's the thing is placeholders are your best friend as writers, you know, whether it's like names, scenes, anything like that. It's grabbing that, then moving on. Because if you don't move on, you're gonna be stuck forever and you're never gonna get anywhere.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I have definitely spent hours thinking, what could I name this island?
SPEAKER_01:I have I'm like, I'm quite pedantic with character names. I'm like, I have to have the character's name before I can start something. So I sit there with all of my baby, like, you know, the baby name books, Google, and I'm like, it's the one thing that I'm like neurotic about and everything else. I'm like, just put this insert, you know, name for the country here or insert this thing here, but the names are things that drive me baddy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and writing a four book series as well. I often forget the names of places and people that I've written about before. And what I should have done when I first started writing it was to keep a little journal with all of them in it, but I didn't. And now we're on to book four, and then I have to find my Kindle app and find the books, my own books that I have done to search through them. What was that character's name again? Oh my god, how old was were they?
SPEAKER_01:Oh god, I do the same thing. I keep saying, Okay, because the novel that I'm writing now is part of a six-part series, and I've got most of it written first draft, but like there's things I'll get to the next draft and be like, who was named what and who how old are they? And I have to go back through and I'm like, I don't have time for this right now. So I'm like, just insert here, blah, blah, blah. But it's like we need to be better about noting things down so that that doesn't happen. But it never, you never change.
SPEAKER_00:It's like you try and then it just yeah. And one thing I will say I'm so thankful for is when I wrote the first book, the publisher said, We really could use a map here. And I said, Well, I'll draw a map then. Great. So I drew the map, and I've I've used it so many times, it's actually my background on my laptop because I'll be writing and I'll think, What's that name? And how how far away are they? Because uh also another thing I've had to do is look up horse traveling distances so many times.
SPEAKER_01:You know you're a fantasy writer win. I love it, it's so great. Where do you think emotional fight scenes should be utilized in a story?
SPEAKER_00:So this is another one I was thinking about earlier, and I was chatting to my husband about this, and you know, I I kind of first started talking about verbal fights here where there's been a breakup or someone's being confronted about something. Um, and yeah, they should be throughout the story. Uh I'd say whenever you've built up enough tension, and then finally it's coming to a head, and the characters can't not say anything about it. Um, and I'd say that there's quite a few, probably in every story, where it's just one of those things where you know you need your characters to say something finally. And then I was thinking, actually, every fight scene is probably emotional in some way. You know, there's um you can write the action, and that's fine, but it's going to come across as very like stilted, and this is this is what happened, and uh a list of things, and it's the emotion from the fight scene that I think that makes it interesting. And I think you could probably write an emotional verbal fight scene without any action, but I don't think it could be the other way around. You couldn't write an action scene without the emotion there, yeah. Um so really, whether you're thinking about writing action, battles, magic, or whatever it is, or whether you're writing a verbal scene, you need to think of it as the same way. You've built up, built up, built up, finally it's coming to a head. You have this big blowout fight, and then something has changed for your character in the story, whether that is that you've made up or someone's died, or whatever, but in in any way, it's always gonna be emotional. Um, because otherwise, why is your character fine?
SPEAKER_01:So true. And I guess, you know, it's kind of a no-brainer here, but do emotional scenes matter as much as physical fighting? Because they're both completely, you know, they've got elements of things that are similar but they're different at the same time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think if I was gonna read a book and it was either you can read a book that has lots of battles in it, yeah, or you can read a book that has lots of verbal fighting between two characters, whatever. I'd definitely pick the book that has got the verbal fight scenes in it. They're just more interesting uh to read, probably. Um it's not just a list of actions. It's this, it probably is a lot more emotional, uh, where it's just down to two characters. Um, I guess you're trying to capture that in the larger battle if you're gonna have one as well. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_01:What advice would you give to a writer who is trying to perfect a fight scene, whether it is emotional or physical?
SPEAKER_00:Um, so I've got I've got a list, which is what I've said. Yes, writing a fighting scene. Amazing. But so the first thing is no matter whether you're writing a fight scene or whatever else, you should definitely read other books, um, especially if they're in your genre. Yeah. So uh I, for example, um, no matter kind of what you feel about um Sarah J. Mass as a writer, uh I think she wrote a really amazing fight scene in the last book in her Throne of Glass um series. Uh I actually really loved that that book series and they really inspired me. Yeah, I think I like there's a lot of elements to it, like female protagonists, um, but also a cast of characters, etc., that I really like. Um, but that fight scene towards the end of it, it just had everything that I like in fight scenes in movies, and she managed to kind of translate it. And there's lots of books that do it really well. Yeah. Um, so yeah, reading loads in your genres is great. Listening to podcasts like yours that give you writing advice or videos as well. So when I first started writing, I watched a lot of um Jenna Moresi, who is on YouTube and she like tackles different themes or different um writing problems, I guess, and she just talks about them. Yeah, uh, she has actually her book has some really great fight scenes in it as well. Uh what else? Uh oh, so when I am thinking about any scene, I like to listen to music um and kind of plot out my head. So a lot of the fight scenes that I write are uh plotted out in my head to Fallout Boy. They're one of my favourites. Yeah. Yeah, for fight scenes, they're great. Um and you're if you I feel like the more that I think about it, the more I'm playing in it, playing it through in my head like a movie, the easier it comes when I'm actually sitting down to write it all. Yeah. Um, so yeah, just kind of imagining it. Um, for this one, I kind of almost did it like a storyboard. Um and I'm I'm not very good at drawing anymore, but you know, it's just like, what's happening here? Like at that that this is the shot that you're seeing, uh, this is what you would see at that point, thinking about all the senses when you're writing, but when you're going through your first draft, like I was saying, you don't need to have everything in it, you know, just get it down, go back over again and see what you can add to it. Um the last one, these are good points, by the way. Um actually, I've got two more. Keep the stakes high. Um, so you know, maybe you do want to injure a character, or maybe someone dies. Don't be afraid to kill your darlings. Exactly. Even if, even if very sadly, you know, people will say to you, I love that character.
SPEAKER_01:Oh no, you're like, I love it too, but someone had to go.
SPEAKER_00:Right, or they had to lose a body part or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Um, and um, you know, you're thinking about why they're fighting, um, what would happen if they lose. Um, are they gonna lose in the fight? It doesn't always need to be that they're winning every single fight. Maybe they get beat up. Um and then yeah, follow that sort of peaks and troughs uh structure where it looks like things are going well, and then oh no, they get punched and then they're back down again, but then they like get back up and then they're fighting. Um and it's gonna that's the same for all stories. I think you need to have those peaks and troughs and constantly cycling through it throughout the whole story to make it interesting. But it's like a mini thing in the fight, you know. You're imagine all the things that you have to keep in a large story, and then you're you're shortening it and you're making it this like one scene. Um and hopefully the reason that they the people liked reading the whole story, you've then condensed into something smaller, and you've got that sort of yeah, thing that's going to be so interesting and like magic, I guess.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Oh, I love magic. Any kind of magic is great. They are amazing points, and definitely I think that people, once they refine them, will get better, get better and better with fight scenes. It's just a matter of not, you know, judging yourself the first time around and just letting it kind of flow out and then coming back to it and revising it, and then finding that the next one will be better and then the next one after that will be better because the more practice that you get, it's like you know, it's flexing a muscle, it's making sure you have those, you know, writing practices in place so that it'll help support you to do those fight scenes when it comes to it in your story.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I think um, you know, a lot of people have said to me in real life, oh, I'd love to write a book, but I just, you know, um, I don't think I'd be very good at it. But actually, I don't think anyone starts off being really good at writing, I mean, a whole book, come on. It that's that's such a huge task. And then people will start writing a couple of pages and think, Oh, I can't, I can't do this, I'm not very good at it. Well, you've only just started. Exactly. You know, it's people who um who want to, I don't know, uh climb mountains uh or yeah, rock climbing, they don't just go, okay, I can like throw myself up a mountain or whatever. Fine if it's something small, but if it's something so big like a mountain or a novel, you need to learn the techniques, you need to practice. Um, and I I really do think anyone can do it. Um, but they just you just need to have the patience with yourself.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, definitely. Amazing. So the next little part that we have is a rapid fire question. So essentially, I give you a word and you say the first thing that comes to mind. So it's whatever that pops in, just say it. Okay. All right, blue, yellow. Love it. Plant life, book, read chalk ward.
unknown:Oh no.
SPEAKER_01:Teachers coming out.
SPEAKER_00:Well, whenever I hear a bail, I'm like, oh, where is that?
SPEAKER_01:Where am I going? Um pillow. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Words. I don't know why, but life, life came back again. Maybe that's telling me something. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Margarita.
unknown:Oh Zachary.
SPEAKER_01:Amazing. And the last question I have, what does dreaming fully awake mean to you?
SPEAKER_00:Um, so uh, well, I know that that's your website. Yeah. Um, and I was thinking, oh, what's the story behind this? Um, so uh I was thinking, well, okay, there's lucid dreaming, um, which I have tried to do in the past. Yep, yeah. Whenever I actually have a bad dream, if I have the time, I like to go back to sleep and see if I can solve whatever it was that was happening in the dream. Um, a writer would do that. I love it. Um, and then I was also thinking, you know, when when I'm uh reading books or writing, I guess, that's what I guess a way that you could describe it. You know, you're you're seeing these other scenes, either this other world, you're still awake, but it's to me I forget where I am, you know, and I'm I'm suddenly somewhere else, especially when I'm uh reading books. Um I do think it is a gift to be able to read and see it, and I'm so thankful that I've got that. Um I will say my friend who I was talking about earlier who um doesn't have that, she did say that she doesn't really get nightmares. So that was the kind of other side of it. Wouldn't that be great if you didn't get nightmares? I get really bad nightmares, and it's like I can't I can't even tell it that they're not real life anymore. Yeah. Um, but would I give it up? Would I give up being able to read and just be able to see everything? And it's suddenly this thing where you're not reading the page anymore, it's just straight into your head. Yeah. I don't think I would give that up if I I wouldn't.
SPEAKER_01:I wouldn't have nightmares worth the nightmares for it. Amazing. So where can our listeners find you?
SPEAKER_00:Uh so I have a website um which is www.carolenlogan.co.uk. So um I am from the UK. Um where else? So my books, the first book in the series, which is the Four Treasure series, uh, is called The Stone of Destiny, and uh you can get it in the UK from lots of different bookshops um from the publisher's website. And I know that the publisher will also send books out throughout the whole world, and they're called Cranic in Publishing. But we did find out that um that also you you can get it on Amazon um Australia, so that's great. I didn't even know that you could do that.
SPEAKER_01:I'm so excited. I was just like, yes, I can read it because I love to actually, you know, obviously, you guys give up time to chat to me on the podcast. And I like to, I know it's only minimal, um, but I like to give back and you know, sit down and read the novels. I would have loved to have done it before our chat. So I'm like, cool, like you know, this part and this part, but like obviously I'm gonna just hit you up on Twitter and be like, I'm reading your novel. I'm gonna like it's it's great.
SPEAKER_00:Like I hopefully, hopefully you're not reading it and go, no, no, never mistake.
SPEAKER_01:Never, never, no, it will be amazing. I'm excited. I love fantasy, so it's it's my jam. I'm happy to sit down and read anything that comes across me.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah. Well, it's um so it's based on Scottish mythology, which uh I love. Um ask me to pronounce a lot of the things, but you're Scottish, you should be able to do it. Well, I don't speak Gaelic. So a lot of the words are are Gaelic and some of them are Scots, thankfully. We have three languages in Scotland, yeah. Uh, and I can speak English and Scots, but not Gaelic.
SPEAKER_01:There's so many unneeded extra letters when it comes to is it Gaelic? Because I'd say Gaelic Gaelic, Gaelic.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so it's Irish, Gaelic, Scottish, Gaelic. I don't know that much.
SPEAKER_01:That's okay. That's that's good to know. It's good to know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, there's a lot of extra letters. Um, you should see our road signs. You'll get like the English word and then the it's not as much as Wales, but yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Wow, that's amazing. That's amazing, fabulous. And I'm just gonna ask one last thing because I know on your Twitter you have a word count. So you're currently obviously writing the last book. How is that going?
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, it's going good. Um, I will say the last two books. So the first one I wrote, um, I was um I wrote it just for fun because I thought, oh, I need a New Year's resolution. And I'd the year before that I'd read loads of books, and then uh the next year I thought I'll write one. And then I realized, oh, this could be a four book series. Maybe I'll we'll try the first one first. And uh I wrote it in a job that I really hated. Um so kind of like to kind of stick it to them almost. I was like, well, whenever I've got a bit of free time, I'll just write another scene and everyone will think I'm doing loads of work, but actually, haha, using company time, yeah. Why not? And then the next two books that I wrote in the series, we had lockdowns here. Oh yes. So there was one in the sort of summer time, and then there was another one in the winter time, and I made it really easy to write a book. Absolutely, and then this year, you know, we don't have any lockdowns and we're teaching full time. Um, and it's just given up the putting the time towards it. I think I'm getting there okay. Um, I'm probably about 5,000 to 10,000 words behind where I would like to be, but yeah, we're getting there. It's also the final book, so I don't have any clue how big it's gonna be, but I feel like it's gonna be a big one. Um but I do have a have a have a timeline for it, and it's supposed to be in by June.
SPEAKER_01:It's got plenty of time, it's only February, it's all good. Well, it's nearly March, but you're all good.
SPEAKER_00:Um, I think I'm gonna get to 55,000 tomorrow. And I'm aiming for about 95,000. So we'll see.
SPEAKER_01:That's good, that's good. My manuscript finished at 108, and I thought it was gonna only be you know 95.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's pretty so that's that's pretty good though. I mean, I love a big book, yeah, yeah. So if it's on the beggar side, I'm like, yes, give it to me.
SPEAKER_01:Give it to me.
unknown:I love it.
SPEAKER_01:Amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Caroline. And I will share all of the links in the show notes, and I hope by the time this comes out that your book will be closer towards being finished.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, hopefully. Thank you so much for having me on.
SPEAKER_01:Yay! I'll talk to you soon. Okay, thank you. Just jumping back on after our little interview. The fourth book is definitely out, so you can go and check out Caroline Logan's books. Um they are so good, and I love that idea of being able to play with Scottish mythology because how fun. Also, uh this podcast was recorded quite a bit a bit ago. Um, I've had a lot of issues with trying to get it out, as well as lots of uh time-consuming things like my novel. So bear with it, it is an amazing, amazing uh interview. I hope you got a lot out of it because five scenes are so imperative to your writing whether they are uh physical or emotional. And I hope that you have enjoyed it. Please buy her books because small publishers and authors need all of the support that you can give them. Thanks, guys. Thanks for listening to the Writing Apothecary Podcast. To find show notes and more information, head over to my website, which is just dreamingfoliolake.com/slash podcast, where you'll find show notes, resources, worksheets, and more info about the podcast. You can also follow us on Instagram by just searching at the Writing Apothecary. I'd also love it if you guys took the time to leave a review or even write it just on your platform. It'll help other creatives and writers find our community and help them get their writing practice and their creativity back on track.